Jay & Van confer about Rehabbing and Renovations.
Van shares his passion for helping homeowners and real estate investors overcome their fears of house renovations/rehabbing, and he loves to be actively involved in helping people reach their goals.
Van Sturgeon is an experienced entrepreneur of over 30 years who has successfully created several businesses in the real estate industry that cover land acquisition, development management, construction, and renovation.
Van personally owns over 1,000 properties across North America and is semi-retired from the day-to-day operations of his businesses.
Timestamps:
0:01 – Get Ready To Be Plugged Into The Money
1:53 – Jay’s New Book: “Where To Get The Money Now”- https://www.JayConner.com/Book
3:14 – Today’s guest: Van Sturgeon
6:12 – Why Van Sturgeon choose real estate.
9:40 – New real estate investors’ biggest challenge while doing their first rehab.
13:20 – How to set up a renovation goal.
15:32 – Importance of having multiple exit strategies
17:02 – Scope of Work in Real Estate
21:38 – Connect with Van Sturgeon – https://www.VanSturgeon.com
22:33 – Best way to find good contractors.
26:17 – As a new real estate investor what percentage deposit up-front should they expect to hear from qualified general contractors?
29:23 – What are the qualities you need to look for in a general contractor?
30:52 – Do you recommend that real estate investors manage their own renovations?
34:20 – Van Sturgeon’s parting message
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Secrets to a Successful Home Renovation with Van Sturgeon & Jay Conner
Jay Conner:
A seasoned real estate investor, who has over 30 years of experience in the business. And he has successfully created several businesses in the real estate industry that cover land acquisitions, development, management, construction, and big time renovations and rehabbing. As you all know, here in Eastern North Carolina, my wife, Carol Joy, and I have been investing full time since 2003 and in our little area we’ve rehabbed about 450 houses. And to have another expert come here on the show to talk about rehabbing and renovations is very exciting to me.
Personally owns over 1,000 properties all across North America. And of course it won’t surprise you that he’s semi-retired from the day-to-day operations of his business. So he’s passionate about helping homeowners and real estate investors overcome their fears of house renovations and rehabbing. I mean, stop and think about it. If you’ve never rehabbed a house, you probably have got some trepidation and you scratch your head about, “Well, where on the road should I start?” when it comes to rehabbing and such. And my guest also loves to be actively involved in helping people like you reach their goals. He’s been written up all over the place with articles about his expertise. For example, he’s been written up in the Los Angeles Tribune, Yahoo Finance, the Ritz Herald, Belmont Star.
Van Sturgeon:
I was born and raised in Chicago and I spent half of my life over there. And then I moved up to Toronto, Canada, and I spent time over there, as well. So I’m a bit of a mutt, I’m a mixture of a bunch of things.
Jay Conner:
I got you. So where are you living now?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, I spent half my time in Toronto, Canada as well as half of it down in Miami Beach.
Jay Conner:
Okay. So you’re back and forth.
Van Sturgeon:
Yeah, that is correct. I’m not too keen on the winter, on that snow in the winter, all that kind of stuff I saw. I’m like those birds that take off, those Canadian geese. I’m one of them that heads down south.
Jay Conner:
Well, let us jump in. Well, tell us, what got you started in real estate?
Van Sturgeon:
Well my story started, I’m a product of the ’60s and I was born and raised in Chicago, as I mentioned. And my parents, we lived in a one-bedroom apartment with my little brother. And what happened was my parents were trying to save up their money to buy their first home, their dream home. And ultimately what ended up happening was they discovered that the apartment building that they were renting from, had actually gone up for sale. So instead of buying their dream home, they put down their down payment, borrowed a bunch of money from friends and family, and became landlords instead of homeowners. And that’s what got me introduced into multi-family or into real estate. We purchased this apartment building and what happened was in the late ’70s, things kind of turned for the worse, as you know, with interest rates climbing 18, 20%.
The whole Iran hostage situation was occurring at the time. The economy was in the dumps and this building that we had purchased that was fully occupied, all of a sudden we were suffering anywhere between 40-60% vacancy. And so, as a family, we had to do everything we could to try to survive and hold onto that investment. And so we ended up doing everything ourselves, whether it’s painting, plastering, cleaning toilets, and God knows how many toilets I’ve cleaned in my life. Whatever it took to be able to hold onto that building and survive, we did as a family. And so ultimately we were able to get through that early part of the late ’70s, early ’80s. And it was a great investment that my parents made. Eventually, I went off to university and graduated, and I could have gone off to become a lawyer, but I decided that I wanted to get it back into construction and renovation.
That was really my calling. I really enjoyed it. And so I broke the bad news to my parents because they were hoping that their boy would have become that type of cat with the three-piece suit and alligator shoes. I wasn’t a lawyer. I decided I wanted to get into general contractors. So that’s what I did. I opened up my business over there in Chicago and as it slowly but surely over a period of time, I started to grow my business and it was very successful. I was lucky in that I got in at the right time, but, Jay, I kept running into the same cats, so same individuals, these real estate investors who buy properties, renovate them, flip them, buy properties, hold onto them, create a portfolio. And that’s when I started to transition to doing that as well. So I had my general contracting businesses growing and prospering, but also started doing flips and then moved on to actually holding, creating real estate portfolios. So, that’s where I’m at.
Jay Conner:
So with your rehabbing and renovation experience, have you focused over the years more on rehabbing single-family houses or commercial properties such as apartments?
Van Sturgeon:
To be honest with you, I’ve renovated, and I still do through my renovation companies, I also have a restoration company. I do both. I do multi-family all the way down to commercial properties, to single family homes. So yeah, I have diverse experiences. I’ve done, literally, thousands of renovations on residential and commercial, as well. So there isn’t really much I haven’t done in real estate.
Jay Conner:
Gotcha. So I know you can speak from experience when I asked you this question and I know you can speak from observing other people. So, when someone’s a new real estate investor, from your own experience and from other people you’ve observed, what would you say the biggest challenges are when they’re working on their first rehab? And the second part of that question is, where do most people mess up based on your experience?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, there’s a variety of mistakes that I see new real estate investors make in their first purchase. And look, when we’re buying property, we’re not buying these beautiful emeralds or diamonds. We’re buying diamonds on the rough. These are ugly ducklings that, hopefully, we’ve got a great deal on. And ultimately we need to infuse some type of renovation, repair, rehab in it to raise value. And then the ironic part about the whole process is when you take a property, you, literally, gotta decrease the value of the property by ripping it apart, throwing more money into it, to be able to reach back to the very minimum that you purchased it for, but then raise the value. And so through that whole process, there’s a lot of fear and there’s a lot of apprehension that real new real estate investors have because you’re talking about, literally, tens of thousands of dollars being spent.
And there’s a lot of apprehension through the whole process because you’re, literally, tearing things apart. So one of the things that I find that the biggest mistake new real estate investors make is really in not sitting down and actually writing down what their goals are. What is it they’re looking to accomplish with this particular property? You can’t go Willy Wally all over the place on it. You actually have to sit down and write down what it is you’re looking to accomplish. If it’s a rental property, what’s the rental rate you want to get? Do you want to get $800, $1,200 a month? If you’re looking to flip it, how much money are you looking to make out of that flip? You got to write that goal down. And because it is through that goal, that the whole process of planning and managing that renovation rehab is going to flow through that goal. Then the actions that we’re going to take.
The steps that we’re going to take are going to flow through that goal. So once you establish that goal, you have to go out there in the marketplace and validate it. And often I find new these new real estate investors, don’t go out there to really do their due diligence, to find out if they’re looking to rent that apartment out or a house out for $1,200 a month, what is it that’s in the marketplace that they need to create or need to do to their property in order to be able to get that $1,200? Or if they’re looking to flip it, what is it that they need to do? And you got to get out there, you gotta do so. You gotta get out there and you got to knock on doors. You got to look at it and some of you can do it off of the internet, but you also need to go and visit properties to get a sense of what the neighborhood is like, and what is the value needed to put in to your property, or to get to that goal once you’ve been able to do that.
The final thing that I really want to get into with you, Jay, is I find that new real estate investors don’t get into writing a scope of work. And a scope of work in my field where in the commercial side, there isn’t a job that I’ve quoted on that doesn’t have a scope of work written where it details exactly what it is that needs to be done to that property. It specifies the appliances, the coloring, everything that’s associated with that renovation or rehab. On the residential side, very rarely do I come across people actually going through that. So that’s another huge mistake that a lot of new real estate investors make is they don’t go into the minutiae and actually detailing what it is they’re looking for.
Jay Conner:
Yeah. So you mentioned a moment ago setting a renovation goal, in other words, “What is it you want to accomplish with this property?” Do you recommend setting that renovation goal before you go under contract? Before you close? What’s the timeline through the process that the real estate investors should go through the renovation goal or establish the goal?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, both actually. I think that in the process of you trying to determine whether a property is the deal, you got to have a good sense of what’s out there in the marketplace and compare that to what market value is. But once you’ve actually acquired a property, put it on contract, then you really got to fine tune that goal and really make sure that if you’re going into the property, looking to flip it, then you need to actually go out there and validate that with what the numbers are and what is it that you need to do this property in order to be able to get to that dollar value. So if you’re looking to make $40,000 on that flip, well, you got to go out there, figure out what it is that you need to put into this property to get to that $40,000.
Jay Conner:
Yeah. You bring up a really, really good point because with every property, as far as single family properties go, we always have multiple exit strategies that we can choose from, right? So for example, case in point to what you’re talking about, Van, I personally went and looked at a house last night at 6:30 PM after my wife, Carol Joy, and I just flew back in from Ketchikan, Alaska. Time to go look at houses, right? So I went and looked. Well, my contractor had already looked at it, and if I’m going to flip the house and get top retail, it’s going to take almost $30,000. Well, the numbers aren’t going to work to do that. So my other strategy upon looking at the property last night was, “Well, wait a minute. Can I buy it subject to the existing note, using the seller’s mortgage and sell it on a rent-to-own and not touch the house?”
Can I just sell it out on rent-to-own and not do it? And when I went and looked, now I can get the numbers to work. We just got to negotiate with the seller for them to take our offers. So I just wanted to give a little color to what you said. Part of that renovation goal, knowing what’s the exit strategy you want to have, it’s always very helpful in my experience to have backup other exit strategies you can look at instead of just being pigeonholed into one. Like if my only exit strategy is to make this house absolutely drop dead gorgeous and sell it at retail in the multiple listing service, I’m going to miss out on some deals. Would you agree with that?
Van Sturgeon:
Absolutely. And it goes to show you that experience goes a long way. Absolutely. I never go into any property purchase without having multiple exit strategies on that property or whether it’s on the renovation side or whether it’s an actual acquisition itself and how to structure that. Like, there’s situations where I purchased property, where, for whatever reason, I got too far into something. And then I’ve had to transition into actually creating something, some other value. For example, finishing a basement, turning that into an in-law suite where I can rent the basement out and rent the upstairs separately, adding additional rental income. These are the types of things, or if there’s additional land on that property, separately selling that parcel of land, adding value to the whole transaction. Those are the types of things that you’re talking about. And I totally agree. You gotta do that. You gotta have multiple exit strategies.
Jay Conner:
Excellent. Now you mentioned a phrase a moment ago, and you said you wanted to dive into this, and I’m really glad you do, because this is something that, particularly, all new real estate investors that are interested in rehabbing need to hear, and that’s the scope of work. So first of all, Van, tell the audience, what’s the definition of scope of work? Let’s not assume that we’re all speaking the same language. So what is scope of work? What does a scope of work look like? And then after you define it, please tell everyone, how do you go about creating the scope of work?
Van Sturgeon:
A scope of work is an actual document that is created, and in that document, you’ll have pictures, drawings, diagrams, specifications, of exactly what you’re looking to accomplish in this renovation rehab of this property. On the commercial side, typically architects, interior designers, engineers are the ones who create the scope of work, and then it goes out to tender. And then once contractors or trades, people who receive that document, there are specific sections within that scope of work that they read, they digest, and then they submit their quotes and estimates based on that scope of work. On the residential side, that’s hardly ever the case. And in fact, the scope of works that I’ve really seen are really, really checklists from what I’ve seen out there and are not really truly scopes of work that can be and should be used in the process of getting contractors and tradespeople to put their estimates or quotes together and send them to you.
Ultimately, if you don’t have a document, how is it that you expect contractors and tradespeople to be able to price out work associated with your project if you don’t have something in writing? Like, literally, I’ve had conversations with new real estate investors where they’ve gone through the process of contacting 20-some odd contractors and tradespeople and only 3 or 4 show up. And of those 3 or 4 that show up, only 2 or 3 give them quotes or estimates on the work. And the reason for that is that good general contractors, good tradespeople really want something in writing to be able to know exactly what it is that this potential client of theirs wants to accomplish within their property. Nobody wants to get into this whole gray area of trying to figure it out along the way because there’s no money in it.
I, speaking as a general contractor who’s done thousands of renovations, will walk away from people if they don’t know what they’re looking for because I know the name of the game for me to be able to profit the most is to have high turnover. Quickly go into a project, complete it, move on to the next one, move on to the next one, move on to the next one. And by virtue of me being bogged down and having to handhold a person, figure out what it is they’re looking to accomplish in this renovation rehab is not good business for me. So if I see somebody who’s got a scope of work and knows exactly what it is they’re looking for in terms of the renovation rehab of their property, then I’m more inclined to be interested in quoting it and being aggressive on that quote because I want to deal with professional people.
And often a lot of new real estate investors scratch their heads and wonder why it is that these contractors treat people like they don’t call them back or give them quotes. Well, that’s because they’re busy and they want to move. They want to deal with professionals. They don’t want to waste time holding you by the hand and trying to figure things out. So that’s the reason why a lot of people have difficulties, especially with this heated real estate market, they can’t find tradespeople or contractors to quote on their work. So I strongly encourage people to create a scope of work. Now, Jay, you asked me about how to create the scope of work. We don’t have enough time to really get into detail of how to create one, but it’s really you having to go through the process of figuring out what it is that you want to accomplish in the property.
You need to do some due diligence with regards to the types of colors and paints and specifications of appliances. You’ve got to put those in. Also, you got to take photographs, maybe do a little sketches of what it is that you’re looking to accomplish in this renovation rehab. And you put it all together in this document and you create subsections in that document for the electrician, the plumber, painter, whoever it is that you’re looking to have to do work on this property so they can clear the goal to that section. See exactly what it is that they’re looking to accomplish, what you’re looking to accomplish, and they quote on it. And you’ll be amazed at how many tradespeople and contractors will quote or bid on it because all the information is there.
Jay Conner:
I’m excited to have as my guest today, Van Sturgeon, expert renovator and rehabber of thousands and thousands of properties. And if you’re curious about what a scope of work really looks like, my best guess is when you contact Van and his team, they will be able to show you what a scope of work looks like. You can contact Van Sturgeon at www.VanSturgeon.com. Now, Van, once the scope of work is put together, you’re now ready to put it out for bid. I think we got the cart before the horse. It’s been my experience. It’s always best to have some relationships in place, or at least some contacts in place, instead of me now having a scope of work. And now I’m running around, where in the world am I going to submit this to? Right? So, at whatever point in the process, what is the best way to go find good contractors that you want to submit your scopes of work to?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, I’m pretty sure that you would tell folks the same thing I’m going to tell you that before you get to roll in on this, you’ve already created sort of your power team within the areas that you’re concentrating in. And in finding properties, doing investments, you have relationships with real estate brokers, mortgage brokers, insurance brokers, all those types of people that you need to have on your team. And it’s amazing once you have those relationships with those people, they will provide you with references of people that they’ve done work with in the past. Also, Jay, you know, we got these beautiful things called REIA, these real estate investors associations, a lot of great people in them. If I came across you, I’m pretty sure that if I have chatted you up and had a conversation with you, you would love to be able to share your wisdom and experience that you’ve had for over so many years.
Just like how I would. And so these are great opportunities for new real estate investors, really to educate themselves and really create relationships with people who know something, to join these associations. There’s Facebook groups, there’s a lot of places where birds of the same feather flock together and go into these places and create relationships. And also at the same time you will learn, “Hey, I need an electrician. Do you have anybody?” “Oh, I’m running into a snag here with a plumber. And he’s telling me to do this. What do you think?” And those are the areas. That’s where I would start. I would never go to my local home improvement center and stand out there and try to write down cell phone numbers or find people that way.
That’s just the wrong way to go. The only way for you to be able to do that is if you’re a seasoned veteran, if you’re an expert, you know exactly what you’re doing. Like, surely, I could pick out people like that. And then, immediately, I could put them on a job site and determine whether they know what they’re doing or not know what they’re doing. But if you’re not at that stage yet, you cannot go down that road. You really should focus your efforts on finding bonafide individuals that will handle the work. And you’ll have less problems going in that direction.
Jay Conner:
Absolutely. Back to the scope of work for a second there, Van. When you get a bid from a contractor, do you require the general contractor to line item their bid? Or are you satisfied with a bottom line?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, if I have a detailed scope of work, I’m fine with them just giving me a line item. Ultimately, what I tell people is that I would love to have a general contractor, tradespeople, include all of their material, and the price, just give me the bottom line. I don’t want to get into running out to buy a pail of paint for people or a box of tile that they’re running short on. It’s amazing when they look after the material, when they bring it onsite, how you’re able to see how efficient they are, and you don’t see things all over a place loosey goosey when they’re paying for it. So when starting out, that’s what I recommend. Once you become experienced and seasoned, then you can turn things around and maybe you might supply material for your contractor, tradespeople. But in the early stages, when you’re starting off, I strongly suggest you just get the bottom line. You have a detailed scope of work, which is included as part of the quote and contract that exists with your contractor, tradesperson, and then you get a bottom line number. And that’s all, move on
Jay Conner:
When you’re brand new as a real estate investor, what percentage deposit upfront should they expect to hear from qualified general contractors, say for their first deal or two?
Van Sturgeon:
I get this question asked often. And what I suggest to people is try to minimize that dollar amount, as least amount as possible. And as far as if that money is going towards purchase of materials, I would even go to the extent of purchasing the materials and having that under my name, somehow structured in that way. Legally, you want to do that because then you retain ownership of the materials instead of in the ownership of that general contractor, tradesperson. But I try to minimize the amount of money put down, and I understand that there’s been an ongoing trend especially now because of this real estate market, how heated it is and everybody’s running, running, running, that more and more people are looking for deposits, especially these tradespeople and contractors.
But I try to minimize that dollar amount. In fact, not give any. Like when you walk into McDonald’s, you’re going to give your $10 over to purchase that hamburger. And you step aside and wait for it to be made. But none of these guys are McDonald’s. So this whole notion that me paying upfront for these contractors, tradespeople to reserve them, or for them to go to my job is something that I try to avoid as much as I can. I encourage people to avoid it as best they can. They don’t need to get 50%. I’ve heard some outrageous sums of money, 50, 80% upfront. And that’s not the way to do business because guess what? You’ve lost control, Jay, you’ve lost control when you’ve overpaid your contractor, tradesperson, you’ve lost control because then they can jerk you around.
They can go now. They started your job and they got another job that they got to run off to. They’re going to go run off to that one. And they’ll tell you, they’ll be there. They’ll be back at your place in a couple of days. It turns into being a couple of weeks and who’s paying for that? But you’ve already paid them. So they got you in a headlock and you got no wiggle room. If I got them coming to me every week or 2 weeks with an invoice to pay them, trust me, I got control. They’re going to show up on my job site. They’re going to finish their work. And then they’re going to go take advantage of somebody else’s good graces, but they’re not gonna do that with me. So that’s part of the seasoning and the experience that you and I have, fortunately. You can’t buy that in a book. You can’t download a YouTube video and watch it. These are the types of things that I can tell you, thousands of stories that I’ve come across these situations where it’s just experience.
Jay Conner:
Absolutely. When you talk about maintaining control, one way that I learned the hard way years ago is I never write that final check to the general contractor, that final draw, until my realtor, who’s going to be selling that house, does a walk through and does their punch lists. Then we get the final punch list, and then we pay that final check. So speaking of these contractors, Van, what should real estate investors do to make sure that the contractors they’re working with are qualified and what are the qualities that you want to look for in a contractor?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, obviously, when you come across a contractor or a tradesperson, hopefully you’ve got them from references that you’ve received from people that you trust. But even in those situations, you still need to go out there and you need to do your due diligence. You need to go visit the job sites, if they have a current job site that they’re working on, go and find out what their condition is. And also, hopefully you can get a hold of that principal, or the person who they’re doing work for to find out how this tradesperson, contractor are. Are they showing up all the time? Are they happy with the service that they’re being provided? And that’s where you really need to start to figure out whether this is an individual that you want to do business with, or you don’t. It is a process where once you’ve been able to find those contractors and tradesperson that you want to do business with, then ultimately the process of trying to manage them is easy. Because if you have a scope of work in place and you know the details associated with what everybody’s supposed to do, then you can then create a flow chart and create when it is that they’re supposed to arrive and not arrive. And it flows beautifully. I don’t know if I’ve answered your question.
Jay Conner:
Sure. So do you recommend that real estate investors manage their own renovation? And if so, how do they go about doing that if they’ve got a general contractor hired?
Van Sturgeon:
Well, I’m going to suggest that people don’t hire a general contractor. And in fact, I suggest that they plan and manage their own renovation without a general contractor and think of saving between 30 to 50% on the whole total renovation rehab budget. Like, if you follow the step-by-step process that I’ve just sort of touched on right now with you, you don’t need a general contractor, you can handle this all on your own. It’s just a matter of knowing how to plan and manage it. And there’s tens of thousand dollars that you can save. And with you starting off as a new real estate investor, I think you need to go down that road and do it yourself because, not physically do the work, Jay, I’m not suggesting that at all, but hiring the right plumber, the electrician, the painter directly, you eliminate the general contractor acting as a middleman, and you’re dealing directly with these folks and you get the best bang for your buck. And listen, at the end of the day, Jay, you gotta have that skill set just as, as important it is to find a great deal.
It’s also really great to be able to plan and manage your own renovation and minimize the rental budget as least amount as possible because that’s more money in your pocket. And if you don’t have that skill set, it’s a problem. Because guess what? Tomorrow you’re going to get a phone call and it says, “Hey, there’s a great deal on this property.” You get over there and you know these properties we’re looking at are ugly ducklings. And if you don’t have a semblance or an understanding of what it is, what kind of work you need to do in that property, how are you going to be in a position to be able to snap that deal up? You got to call up your contractor friend, you’re going to call up your property inspector to come over there? By the time they show up, that property is long gone. So you need to have the skillset. If you’re going to be a successful real estate investor, be able to walk in, determine exactly what it is you need to do, what the value is, how long it’s going to take and bang that, and then make a decision whether you want to buy that property or not.
Jay Conner:
Yeah. When I started out back in 2003, that year we only rehabbed 3 houses our first year into it. From 2003 up until just a few years ago, I’ve just been working with 2 different crew leaders managing my own renovations through my project managers. But then a few years ago here in North Carolina, and I’m sure this varies from state to state, here in North Carolina, if a rehab is going to cost $30,000 or more, and it’s not your primary residence, they will lock you up if you don’t have a general contractor. Ask me how I know. But, anyway, so I do both. Adhering to the law here in North Carolina. And again, I know it varies from state to state, 30,000 or more, you got to have a general contractor involved, overseeing all that work. Under 30,000, you can use your own crews. But what I love about your advice, Van, is whether you’re using general contractors or not, you need to know what those line item costs are by the tradesman. If you’re getting plumbing done, what’s that? If you’re getting your paint done, what’s that? Exterior paint, what’s that? LVP flooring, what’s that? Otherwise, you’re going to be taken to the cleaners. Van, wow! It’s been exciting to have you here on the show, parting comments to the audience.
Van Sturgeon:
Well, I really appreciate the time that you’ve given me. And hopefully if there’s folks that will learn something about what I’ve been preaching, if they want to learn more about myself and the process of planning and managing a successful renovation rehab, I encourage them to go over to my website at VanSturgeon.com. I’ve got a bunch of information there from articles I’ve written, podcasts I’ve been on, and also got a free training video. That’s on my website where people can watch to be able to give them a good idea and understand what it is that they need to do to plan and manage a successful renovation rehab, whether they use a general contractor or not. It really is a good process to really understand and to be able to really navigate the trouble, the difficult waters that everybody goes through when they purchase their first or second property. And they got to do a substantial renovation rehab to it.
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